Navigating Polyamory and Open Relationships: Insights and Advice from Dr. Sheena Glover and Dr. Katherine Redd

Title: Transcript – Sat, 27 Apr 2024 20:19:46 GMT
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2024 20:19:46 GMT, Duration: [00:43:13.28]

[00:00:11.19] – Dr Sheena Glover
Welcome to Intimacy Today. I am your host, doctor Sheena Glover, And I am a licensed psychologist that really loves understanding the intricacies of relationships. And today, we are going to be focusing on what it’s like to be the person who is single and has just come across a potential match who happens to be in an open relationship. So I wanna set the scene. I want you to imagine for a moment that you’re on a dating site, and you have finally matched with someone that you’re really attracted to. And as you guys start to slowly build up a connection over messaging, You notice how much you overlap in your hobbies, your activities, and just similar interests. And just before you guys decide to go and make this a official plan for a date, you learn that this individual is currently in a relationship and specifically an open relationship, and they really want to be transparent with you. They don’t want to give you any mixed messages. Now we can’t stop our reactions, and there is a lot of mixed reactions. Some might find this to be really curious. Others might find it confusing and other times it can be a ground for having a guarded reaction. I have invited Doctor. Catherine Redd to the conversation as she not only a close friend and colleague, she also specializes in relational work. She works with individuals who are looking to do the preliminary work of addressing how they show up in relationships and how that contributes to some of the dysfunctions that they might see in their everyday relationships. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
[00:02:25.59] – Dr Katherine Redd
Hello. Thank you for inviting me.
[00:02:28.19] – Dr Sheena Glover
Given that you work in, individual therapy with adults with trauma, I can imagine that you’ve come across different relationship experiences with a lot of your your clients. And Mhmm. One of the the things I’m really curious about is based on the, the kind of the scenario where you match with a guy or girl, and before you even get to the date, they tell you that they’re in an open relationship. What was your immediate reaction to that?
[00:02:59.50] – Dr Katherine Redd
It’s definitely an immediate reaction that I would discuss with my clients is definitely to give themselves time. Right? Unless there’s a level of self awareness. Right? There you may know immediately and that this isn’t for me at all. Mhmm. But if there’s a semblance of curiosity and, there’s already a connection between you and the other person and you’re on that defense of do I do I go there or do I not? I would really encourage, giving yourself time as well as as well as kind of exploring what your ideas are around polyamorous relationships. What what’s your knowledge? What do you know about it? And truly be honest with you, because it’s less so about the other person and more so about what do I what am I interested in? What, what am what’s my capacity to be connected to someone who’s also connected to other people and in in various ways? And how do I truly feel about that?
[00:04:18.89] – Dr Sheena Glover
You know, one of the things when I think of time, giving yourself time, I think that there has to be information gathering, and kind of understanding this world about open relationship or polyamory. And for the audience, the difference largely is is that within an open relationship, the individual has a primary relationship, but they are able to have multiple relationship with others, whether it be sexual or romantic. And then in a polyamory relationship is the belief that you can deeply connect with another person multiple people at a time. And so I guess, you know, if you were to come across a client that was in this situation saying, hey, doctor Red. I I just match with someone, and they tell me that I am in a open relationship or open marriage or in a polyamory, I guess, what would be some of the things that you would try to help them to kind of unpack and learn as they’re going slow in deciding?
[00:05:35.89] – Dr Katherine Redd
First thing is, what is your dating? What are your preferences Really connecting to who are you and what do you truly expect and want out of a relationship? And do you have different ideas and versions of that thing? Depending on where you are in your life, you can have different, perspectives. So for me, I would within that therapeutic context, I would do a lot of unpacking and, well, what are your expectations when you think of relationship versus when you think of dating versus when you think of marriage and spending time, flipping through the layers that comes with that, because it could look differently from person to person. And, if you having converse definitely having conversations about defining infidelity, Right? Mhmm. Within this conversation about polyamorous, a lot of there’s this underlying context of is it infidelity? Are you simply are you simply giving someone permission to be, unfaithful and you’re going through this cognitive dissonance, right, to say that it’s okay. Mhmm. So that would that would be a huge conversation to have within that context because if you really believe it, I can’t control my partner, so I’m simply gonna allow them to do what they want. Or if that’s the approach, then I would want to unpack that a little bit more and, of course, talk about, well, how do you set boundaries? Like, how do you do you stay? Do you go? What do you do? And explore that. But if that’s not your perspective and you truly believe that you are as human beings, you are capable of loving multiple people and you do garner different, you garner different things based different aspects of who you are. Right? So let’s say for example, you’re an avid reader and you thrive. There’s a part of you that thrives from information gathering and you meet a partner who is, who matches that, that can that connection can be so deep and fulfilling. You may not get that from someone. Yeah. Say, the other person hates traveling. I mean, loves traveling, but they hate reading. That can be another part of yourself. So there are different ways that people conceptualize connection or connecting to someone else. So exploring that, I think, is really important, so that the client has a really clear understanding of what they what their perceptions are when it comes to dating and what they’re looking for.
[00:08:59.29] – Dr Sheena Glover
You know, I think you bring up a really good point about the betrayal because so many people believe I mean there are so many people that don’t understand like polyamory relationships or open relationship that it is just cheating. And that is such a departure from what this particular community is all about, which is especially in the polyamory relationship as well as open marriage that you can have deeper relationship, more fulfilling relationship with multiple people as well as is say in the open marriage, you have this primary relationship that deepens because you’ve exercised your marriage in a way that doesn’t look like the standard. And I think that we get really caught up in, like, stereotypes of of this illusion. And I guess, you know, off the off the top of your head, how would you go about helping them to debunk this idea that this is just infidelity?
[00:10:02.39] – Dr Katherine Redd
What is infidelity? Is it the is it the fact is it the betrayal? Is it the fact that he didn’t know the information? What is infidelity? I mean, I think that’s a great yeah. That’s a great start. And a lot of times, like, do you think infidelity is the act of having sexual intimacy with someone? Is it a conversation? Is it a emotional connection? We we have this general consensus that men care more about the sexual nature of infidelity and women care more about the emotional connection. Right? And whether or not that’s true, like, what do you really want to, what do you really believe when it comes to infidelity? And, is it the betrayal itself? The fact that you didn’t know and you were going along with your life on day to day basis. And then this information that’s pertinent to your relationship was withheld to me. That’s a good point.
[00:11:17.10] – Dr Sheena Glover
One of the things when I think of, like, infidelity, in that particular scenario where you’re dating someone or or not even dating, you’re about to go on your first date, This in that scenario, the person who is in that polyamory relationship wanted to make sure that they cleared the air, so made sure to create this level of expectation. And so it is a really unique experience of, say, betrayal because infidelity naturally a the person that you just before you go on your first date was very honest and told you, hey. This is the kind of make sure that you’re comfortable with this before we build anything. How do you process that as betrayal?
[00:12:16.00] – Dr Katherine Redd
In the realm of online dating, it really is based off of the profile and the conversation that you two have prior to that very first date. Right? If it shows if it says nowhere on the profile, on the individual’s profile that they are looking for someone who’s open to an ethical non monogamous in interaction or encounter. That in and of itself could be seen as a betrayal because, like, your profile says one thing, but in reality, you can think That’s a good point. And, then on the flip side, if you are someone who is in an in an open relationship marriage, and when we use the term relationship, it’s all encompassing relationship and marriage, at least when I’m saying it. It’s creating a profile that’s completely honest can be difficult because sometimes a lot of people will click that little red x. The moment the moment they see ethically ethical ethically non monogamous, they’ll literally say next. Right? Because there isn’t enough information out there that, defines what it is. And in addition to that, there is a whole host of misconception that says, it’s just another glorified way of making infidelity okay.
[00:14:06.10] – Dr Sheena Glover
Yeah. Yeah. It so there’s a, like, a risk on that. And then I I wanna kind of, like, at least make note of the courage that it takes to be so transparent and to say, like, hey, This is who I am. This is the kind of relationship that I am looking for. And that when when you have all these kind of, stereotypes or your own misinformation about a particular community, I think that, it wore it kind of invites a lot of rejection within this particular community.
[00:14:38.20] – Dr Katherine Redd
It does.
[00:14:39.10] – Dr Sheena Glover
And so, you know, something that comes to mind is, people in using interchangeable, word of polyamory and and polygyny. And, like, for the audience, I I think it’s very important to, like, define it.
[00:14:54.60] – Dr Katherine Redd
Yeah. Definitely.
[00:14:56.00] – Dr Sheena Glover
Yeah. So a polyamory, for those who don’t know, is a type of relationship where all partners involved have the ability to engage in a deeper and meaningful relationship with multiple people. And that there is there is mutual respect and consent. Whereas in polyam or polygamy relationship or polygamous relationship, they it is most oftentimes hierarchical. There’s a individual that has multiple spouses. It could be and it’s typically males who is the individual who have several wives and that each partner in that polygamy dynamic is monogamous to the individual. Yeah. And so, I you know, why do you think it’s so easy for people to to assume, like, polyamory and polygamy is interchangeable.
[00:15:55.89] – Dr Katherine Redd
Because I think there’s more exposure to, polygamy, that terminology, just based on different religions, different cultural practices, and even the show.
[00:16:08.70] – Dr Sheena Glover
Sister Wives.
[00:16:09.79] – Dr Katherine Redd
Sister Wives. Right? Yeah. That it it opened it up so widely to the world that that definition just it it almost seems like people use it as an umbrella term that covers all relationship that practice some semblance of that. And, so that’s why it’s really important to distinguish what is considered, ethically nominal elements versus what’s considered an individual who has a capacity to whether it’s due to religious norms or their own personal beliefs. Right? That I want to I want to be in a relationship, in a marriage with multiple people and I expect and demand that they are solely they’re solely, they’re solely connected to me and Milam. Right? Versus I wanna be in a relationship where it’s a mutual thing and, my partner can go and do what they want as long as it falls within the boundaries that we have set together. And I can go out and explore myself, as long as, again, it fits within the parameters that we have discussed. And it’s a constant conversation that it evolves. Mhmm.
[00:17:43.09] – Dr Sheena Glover
Well, that conversation evolving you mentioned earlier, is the boundaries. Boundaries are absolutely important, especially if you are a single individual who’s deciding to date another person and you have no idea anything about polyamory or open relationships. Like, there is a lot of power that comes with having conversations and kind of creating an environment where it is both healthy and respectful for both people involved. And so, like, what are some boundaries? Do you think someone who is very brand new, if they’re curious about exploring this relationship with a with a potential mate that has been involved in polyamory relationships?
[00:18:32.09] – Dr Katherine Redd
I think the first thing is figuring out how much you want to know. Right? Mhmm. I think that’s extremely important for you to be aware of. Do you how much information do you want to know in terms of what that person’s relationship or relationships look like? Right? And being honest with yourself, can I truly handle gaining all this information? Because there is a spectrum. You could know you can choose to say, you know what? I believe that you’re truly in a because that’s another part of it. You you’re believing the other individual. There’s this trusting that when you say you’re in a polyamorous relationship that you truly are, that you’re not making it up and that your your partner truly is aware that you are dating someone else and you’re exploring this emotional connection or relationship with the other person. So let’s say all things are equal and you are telling the truth. As the person that’s new to this, it’s important for you to figure out and be honest within yourself. Do I want to know about their partner? And what do I want to know? Do I want to know their name? Do I wanna know what they look like? Do I wanna know, what kind of relationship they’re having? Do I wanna know if they’re having if they’re sexually intimate with each other or if they’re not? Do I wanna know if the other person is am I the only person outside of their primary relationship, or are they all are there other individuals involved as well? How much do you want? And I think that’s the main thing because that can that dictates what your capacity is within that dynamic. Yeah. And then you can explore and go from there. And if you’re someone who doesn’t want to know anything, you’re like, okay. I hear you. Thank you. I only wanna know what’s going on between you and I, and that’s it. Then you have a clear picture on how you’re connecting with the this other individual. But if you
[00:20:52.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
do But that actually proposes a bit of a challenge because if you know that this person is is in a polyamory relationship, there there is consent across the board. There is knowledge and sharing. And so if the person that the the individual who is single wanted to keep everything exclusive, meaning I don’t wanna know anything outside of us. Wouldn’t you say that there is, like, a cause for maybe dilemmas for that individual?
[00:21:31.90] – Dr Katherine Redd
Who? For who? The person with the the person who practices polyamorous or polyamory or the person who’s single?
[00:21:41.00] – Dr Sheena Glover
The person that’s single.
[00:21:44.00] – Dr Katherine Redd
Again, that’s why the self awareness piece is so important. Right? You don’t want to go into a situation that you may not emotionally be ready to handle. That’s why that’s why the it’s important to yet again explore what is my capacity. Am I truly able to know that, okay, this if it’s a heterosexual relationship, this man is in a relationship with another woman, his wife. Right? And, how do I manage my expectation? Like, when I call, how do I manage? Maybe he doesn’t pick up. Right? Or maybe how do I manage? We only see each other once a week. And truly, I wouldn’t recommend going into a situation like this if you don’t have the capacity to manage those expectations.
[00:22:56.09] – Dr Sheena Glover
And I don’t think it’s just expectations. I think also there’s this big feeling called jealousy that will come. And that deep sense of insecurity that would come whenever, you know, the person that you selected is with other partners.
[00:23:13.70] – Dr Katherine Redd
Yeah.
[00:23:14.00] – Dr Sheena Glover
I I and that’s the big piece of the emotional kind of ramifications of
[00:23:20.59] – Dr Katherine Redd
Yeah.
[00:23:21.00] – Dr Sheena Glover
Of this is how do you fare when you know the person you’re deeply connected to now is also deeply connected to other people in in their unique way. What are your thoughts
[00:23:34.79] – Dr Katherine Redd
on that? That’s why I’m that’s why I keep saying honest. Being honest. It’s not just about being honest with the other person. It’s truly about being honest with yourself. Because you can lie to yourself all day long and say I’m good. I can do this. But it’s it’s a lie that you’re telling yourself. You’re creating this emotional distress within yourself and you’re you’ll end up doing so much. There’s a potential for damage that you’re causing. And if that’s the if that’s the case, I would recommend that that’s when those are your indicators of, okay, I’m I don’t have the capacity to participate in Yeah. Mhmm. In a relationship dynamic such as this. I’m truly someone who falls in the monogamy realm of things versus someone who is, who can part who can be involved in a polyamorous relationship.
[00:24:43.20] – Dr Sheena Glover
Yeah. I I love the exploration of this is because this is something that you’ve that may fall into people’s laps and those who are curious and and and have the courage to kind of explore this kind of relationship. If they come away saying, no. I’ve learned more about myself and that I’m monogamous all the way better. If not, you know, they might want to enjoy relationships such as polyamory or open relationships, you know, just kind of a two folder, depending on where you where you land. So one of the things about jealousy that I could imagine that comes up is that where do I fit in with the other person? Jealousy really comes from a place within this context that we’re talking about. Comes from a place of, like, I wanna feel like I matter, that I’m important to you, and that you want me. And this idea that going into a relationship, like an open relationship that you’ve never been a part of or never even knew until this moment or this interaction, you immediately are gripped by that understanding or that that experience of, am I good enough? Do I, you know, do am I equal to the other person that this person loves or have a deep connection with? These are the things that I that go through my mind when it comes to the experience of jealousy for clients. And what are your thoughts on this?
[00:26:24.40] – Dr Katherine Redd
Yeah. I I typically like to distinguish jealousy from envy because a lot of times we experience both and we don’t recognize, like, how each play a different role in our experiences, especially in relationships. Right? You could easily be envious of the other partner that you don’t know. Right? Especially if you pick up the phone and you call and you’re the person who you’re connected to doesn’t answer. Right? Or you’re seeing them only once a week or twice a week, and, that’s a very clear cut boundary. Like, we can’t see each other multiple more than that because right? That’s the dynamic that we’ve created. You could easily go into the space of being envious that the other gets to spend more time with this person. The other gets to have seemingly a deeper connection with this person and, that you want more. You want more time. You want more vulnerability. You want more connection. Like, those are some of the things that’s important to be mindful of in the experience of I’m a single person, male or female. I’m a single person who, is dating someone who is in a polyamorous relationship. Mhmm. And how do you kind of wrap your mind around that idea of I don’t have this this open amount of time, space, and connection. Like, it’s it may seem limited from your perspective.
[00:28:22.09] – Dr Sheena Glover
And the surprising thing is is that it’s not. And when you’re truly in that type of relationship, it’s not it’s deeply fulfilling. But if you’re new to it and you’ve never done this and it just kind of falls into your lap, you’re curious about that. You’re and and it’s not even curiosity. You’re worried about it because this is how I build relationship with someone that I’m really attracted to. So this actually opens the door, Catherine, from what you said, that connection. Mhmm. It’s emotional intimacy. That is the one of the biggest hallmark in making this relationship more meaningful is because as you said earlier about honesty, being honest with yourself, Also, when you are honest with the person that’s, you know, introducing you to this type of relationship, that honesty extends to vulnerability. Being able to say, wow. I feel deeply insecure that you’re not accessible to me. Alright. What were what were you thinking?
[00:29:30.59] – Dr Katherine Redd
Exactly. I was gonna say definitely not just being honest with yourself, but then being able to share that honest insight with the with the other person. And that, definitely, I agree, it creates a deeper connection, and a deeper sense of self awareness as well as a deeper sense of, like, connectivity within the relationship that you’re building because then you are able to talk about these things that matter, these things that we the, the thread. These are the threads that make emotional connection, more solid. And there’s a building block that we don’t tend to be mindful of and, recognize. So, yeah, definitely. Because then it’s it’s being able to not only share it, but also be able to manage the emotions and the disappointment that may come. Because you may definitely say I I want to spend more time with you. And a response could be, I don’t have. I can’t. Right? So then how do you then manage that? That disappointment, that sadness.
[00:30:50.50] – Dr Sheena Glover
Feeling of rejection.
[00:30:51.70] – Dr Katherine Redd
The feeling of rejection. Exactly.
[00:30:54.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
Yeah. You know, though, this is a really good segue that while they we’re kind of putting down the foundational pieces for the individual who’s walking into a polyamory relationship, being self aware, asking the right questions. But also we talk we’re talking about emotional intimacy and what that means when we feel these very not so pretty emotions like jealousy, boundaries is the next piece. Because boundaries allow us to have a certain sense of predictability within our relationship. And so we as a couple get to establish what makes us our most authentic self and says certain things needs to be put in place in order for us to be and to continue to show up as ourselves. So boundaries are very important. When you think about and I’m when I listen to you, I think about how you really highlight, I wanna see you. I wanna be with you. Oh, I can’t because you’re, you know, in this scenario. So is there room for boundaries in that? And if so, what what are some thoughts about boundaries that someone in this situation can put into place or ask about?
[00:32:19.79] – Dr Katherine Redd
For themselves, it’s it’s it would be challenging because the the person in that scenario, they’re setting their boundaries. Right? This is what our relationship is going to look like within this polyamorous dynamic. And what do you then do with your time when you’re not in their presence? Right? How do you then, fill that time and space? What are you doing to fulfill yourself so that these emotions, these uncomfortable emotions that we’ve discussed doesn’t creep in and take over? Mhmm. Right? That going into that self care piece could be important in terms of being able to accept those boundaries that are there and being mindful of what they are. That way, you don’t push against the boundaries they’re set up. And it may be new. It may feel uncomfortable. It may call you. I’m gonna call you when I walk. Right? Because and that’s that’s something that you may be new to you or it could also be very refreshing, the predictability of it, like you said, to knowing that, okay, this is what I’m expecting. This is what is expected. This is exactly what I’m getting. That can also be very refreshing. So you’re able to fully, enjoy and take in those moments and create space that you get to miss the person, and you find ways to deal with that and soothe. And, even explore for yourself if you are interested in dating other people as well or if you’re just going to continue being and building with this individual. But it leaves so much room for you to be able to explore within yourself, what is it that you want from a relationship, and what does it look like for you as an individual?
[00:34:50.30] – Dr Sheena Glover
Mhmm. You know, there is something that just occurred to me. One of the challenges that if you’re new to this environment and this is a challenge within the polyamory community is when you when you grow in that relationship and start maybe bringing this person along into your inner circle.
[00:35:11.80] – Dr Katherine Redd
Exactly.
[00:35:12.59] – Dr Sheena Glover
Oh, because you also are confronted with other people’s Exact. Stereotypes and expectations,
[00:35:20.90] – Dr Katherine Redd
norms. And beliefs.
[00:35:22.50] – Dr Sheena Glover
Exactly. And then you have to rifle through.
[00:35:26.69] – Dr Katherine Redd
You do. Like, who do you do you tell anyone? Like, do you That’s a good question. Yeah. Do you disclose whether or not okay. Yes. Yes. I’m single. And, yes, the person that I’m here with that’s sitting right next to me, they’re not. Right? And how do you how do you navigate the opinions that come swirling around you when you when you do disclose that? Or do you simply let it be known that, okay, this is a casual thing. Right? Like Mhmm. How do you like, so definitely, it’s something to consider, something to think about. How do you disclose that information and to whom do you disclose that to? Is it anybody’s business?
[00:36:17.69] – Dr Sheena Glover
And I think that it’s very important that you if you were to disclose to someone, it has to be someone that you trust, that can respect and hold the level of flexibility. Because if all you’re gonna go to is someone is who’s very rigid and who is limited on their understanding of non traditional relationship, Meaning, like what you said earlier about it’s, you know, open relationship is just another type of relationship that condones infidelity. If that’s the space that they’re coming from, then you’re not really helping or getting help on expanding your perspective. It, in fact, you know, limits the perspective. Now at the end of the day, you can come away saying, I don’t want this kind of relationship. I I feel maybe too much of the insecurities. I’m not able to experience joy for the partnership, the partnerships that my partner is in. Thus, I don’t think I belong in this space. That’s fine. But I think that it’s very important that you know who you are going to confide in because they can make or break the the internal shame that also can come up. I mean, if I saw a head
[00:37:38.40] – Dr Katherine Redd
nod Yeah. They can definitely make that space, worsen. Right? Because it it also depends on where you are in your life. Right? What your, again, what what is expected of you within your circle or what your what society is saying that you’re supposed to be in that stage of your life. So, again, if you’re single and you’re dating someone and yet everyone around you keeps asking you, when are you getting married? When are you getting married? And you find yourself in this dynamic of I’m having this, I’m exploring the possibility of being in a polyamorous relationship or that’s a hard pill to swallow for you to tell anybody that, like, especially that don’t believe that it’s an acceptable way of being, you know, having a relationship. Right? Mhmm. It makes it a it makes it a very uncomfortable conversation. It makes it, very, potentially defensive than devices as well. So, yeah, something to consider. And even another thing that comes up is if you when you’re at a space of potentially meeting their the other partners, the other connection. Like, ask someone new, how do you handle that? Do what do you know about it? What are you going what are your expectations? What are your thoughts? What are your feelings around? Do I? Do I not?
[00:39:23.80] – Dr Sheena Glover
I think you bring up a really good point because, like I made made distinction at the beginning. What is the kind of the subtle differences of open relationship versus polyamory? And, you know, some people are within the community. They might use it interchangeably, or they might, you know, really stick to the true value of each. So Mhmm. I want you guys to think about, the the show Insecure. And I forgot Issa’s best friend, the lawyer. What was her name? Do you know what her name? Molly. Yes. She was in a relationship with a man that she had, went way back with, and he was in an open marriage where his wife was primary. They had an agreement to open up their marriage and have open relationship. And Molly, in many ways, kind of struggled like we’ve talked about, you know, seeing her man with his wife, not knowing where to put those emotions. And then when they met in the show, Molly, you could tell she was really uncomfortable and awkward. And, you know, it’s almost like, where do I put my hands? I I don’t know what to do with my hands kind of nervousness. Yeah. But I think that that’s such a beautiful point, Catherine, about what does it mean to meet the person that you’re with? Because if you’re coming from a space of, say, polyamory, there is deep felt connections you can make within partnerships. Like, there’s this word called compersion, and it is where you experience true joy over your partner’s happiness with another and that it you you wanna start creating a community within the polyamory. You might not see that as much in the open relationship, but definitely in the polyamory. So depending on where your partner lands in that, they might want you to be in harmony or in community is a better word, with the other connections and relationships that they have. Just in saying that, what what are your thoughts on this, Catherine?
[00:41:41.80] – Dr Katherine Redd
I was gonna go back to time. Mhmm. Right? I I strongly believe, just in general, that it’s important to know your capacity and give yourself time. So if the conversation does come up and the relationship just start to branch in that direction, you also have the power to take your time and to be ready before you do go down that route. And you also have, the capacity to say, you know what? I actually would not want to meet them. Or I do want to meet them, and this is what I need in order to feel comfortable.
[00:42:34.80] – Dr Sheena Glover
Well, you’ve made it to the end of the episode, and I’m really glad you stuck it out. Because for anybody who is looking for more information on Consensual Non Monogamy, I highly recommend Poly Secure by Jessica Fern. And if you’re interested in working with Doctor. Katherine Red head on over to Psychology Today. You can also find her information on my website called intimacyinprogress dot com. I put out new episodes every other week. So subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. And I can’t wait for our next chat. Talk soon.