Title: Transcript – Mon, 20 May 2024 15:32:21 GMT
Date: Mon, 20 May 2024 15:32:21 GMT, Duration: [01:08:12.13]
[00:00:11.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
to another episode of Intimacy Today. I’m your host, Doctor. Sheena Glover. I’m excited about today’s topic because you’re going to hear a conversation between a colleague and I about religious trauma and how that can impact a marriage. Oftentimes people who are deconstructing their faith. They’re they are coming from a high controlled religion. And one of the unfortunate drawbacks to high controlled religion is it perpetuates a lot of shame and fear. And when a couple has to make the tough decision to walk away from their religion. It means that they are left with so many questions about their identity, what love means in the marriage, and the roles that they play in the marriage, as well as how it reshapes sexuality. Joining me today is Lisa Brennan, a seasoned therapist of over twenty years of experience. And there isn’t much she hasn’t seen. She has helped couples and individuals help reconnect with themselves and work through the difficult parts of what it means to just be alive, be in this world. And I hope you enjoy today’s episode.
[00:01:43.50] – Dr Sheena Glover
what I was thinking about is why when we look at couples and we use the word trauma around it, why does your sexuality being treated like a light switch where you’re supposed to have it off the whole time you are single and you’re, you know, part of the religious community, and then all of a sudden you have to turn it on. They the moment you are legally binded to someone, your spouse. Why do you think that that’s traumatic?
[00:02:15.19] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
I mean, it shuts down just basic human desire, basic human biological functions. I mean, you know, we we it’s like any feeling. We don’t control a feeling coming up. I mean, some people think they do. You know? Like, well, anger is not, you know serves no purpose, so I just won’t feel it. But that’s not actually what happens. They feel it. You know, the same with sexual desire. So it’s dehumanizing. It it’s shutting down something that naturally happens for all of us. When those types of biological urges and all the desire or hormones are raging, you know, right at the peak of all that, that’s when high control religion usually wants to clamp that down and puts all these rules on it.
[00:03:02.90] – Dr Sheena Glover
you have the purity culture and it’s all about controlling. You know, the thing that comes to mind for me is that every time the light switch of sexuality has been turned on, immediate shame has been kind of married together with it. So if I have a thought that is sexual in nature, the religion that I’m a part of that is high control tells me that that is terrible, that I am sending, that I’m going to go to hell. So now I have created this immediate relationship that the word on on sexuality immediately means that I have committed what lack of a better word, crime. And so you fast forward and you’re legally allowed to now have sex under the umbrella of this religion, turning it on means that I am still committing a sin, but it’s also an allowable it’s hard to it’s hard to kinda go into this gray space. Right? Because religion high control religion in and of itself is very binary in their thinking. And so, you know, no. There’s not a preparation for that.
[00:04:20.19] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
No. No. How do you shift gears in that way when you’ve been told something is wrong? You know? And and with men, it’s they can’t their minds are evil. With women, it’s their bodies are evil. So how do you shut that down? It’s gonna eventually play into any relationship.
[00:04:40.10] – Dr Sheena Glover
I wanna name the fear that happens. Like, we’re using the word trauma or I at least post it as that. Like, why does it feel so traumatic or is traumatic for some people? Well, it’s rooted in that fear of I am doing something wrong because I am wrong based on the religion you were taught. So I’ve been working towards being, you know, next to as pure as possible. And so anything that stains that sense of purity, that sense of non sinfulness, if you will, is causing a lot of fear when you’re engaging in any behavior that brings that up. And what do do
[00:05:22.80] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
do do you think about that? Where my mind goes, it’s more focused on maybe the woman, you know, that after being told, you know, that and and there’s, I think, a societal pressure, a cultural pressure, and then there’s the high control religion that’s kind of informing them how to be sexually speaking. You know? So it’s kind of like there’s this pressure of the basically, go into the Madonna whore complex. You know? You can’t you can’t be a woman that wants too much sex, and you can’t be a woman that doesn’t want sex at all. You know? I literally saw a Facebook post the other day, and it was two pictures of two different women. And the the question that was posed was, what do what do you think men really want? And the picture was the first one was a woman, you know, very comfortable in her, you know, sexuality dressed very sexy, felt, you know, good about herself. And then the other picture was a woman holding a child. Yeah. I draw dressed,
[00:06:31.60] – Dr Sheena Glover
know,
[00:06:31.89] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
with high high neckline. And the there were people that were answering the question as though it was a valid question. And, you know, all I could think was it’s just so black and white, and we’re still dealing with that in in twenty twenty four. It’s it. Mhmm. It’s women are all of it, yet we’re still
[00:06:56.19] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Held to this ideal of and both can’t be both can’t exist at the same time. You can’t be a sexual being that loves pleasure and desire and sex and be a good mom and nurturing and, you know, everything that comes along with the more domesticated side of things.
[00:07:22.39] – Dr Sheena Glover
I think of that, those two image, that’s how women are just relegated to being a sexual object or nurturer. And there’s such a huge gap between that very small roles too if you you know, depending on how you, a woman leads her life. She might not be a mother. She might not she might be asexual too, you know? And so it’s this idea that we, you could either be a Vixen or a mother. And it’s really unfortunate to see women having to like grapple with this. Like if, if I choose one, it automatically means I’m not the other. Yeah. And then and then there’s a guilt about not being one or the other as well. And and it’s situated around a man’s experience, what the man deems it as kind of like cornering of women that they have to constantly navigate through in this. Right.
[00:08:25.69] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
And then, you know, add high control religion where there’s, you know, lack of sex education, lack of, encouraging to know your own body, you know, pleasure is compare is feels hedonistic in high control religions. Like, you’re not supposed to, you know, enjoy your body, enjoy sex, put that on top of it and, and then get married and you’re with somebody for the first time. And you believe, I think a lot of times that that’s gonna just come to you, you’re gonna know what to do, and that’s not the case a lot of the time. So then it almost puts it in the spot, I think, where it becomes performative. There’s a lack of intimacy that happens because nobody, you know, understands what they what they’re actually feeling because they never explored it.
[00:09:21.39] – Dr Sheena Glover
was reading a a article about sexual health among teens. Like, how is information actually getting to them about sexual health? And in this article, they found that the Internet is the most popular place to get as much information as you can about health because it is not being taught within, like, school systems. In fact, I believe there’s about only twenty states that actually says that you have to provide this type of sexual education. And even within the twenty that does, they don’t necessarily provide a comprehensive, a complete look at sexual health. Right? So there is this glaring issue about sexual education, which is pleasure is never talked about at a very, you know, young age of, you know, being in your puberties and things like that. It’s never talked about. It is always a consequence that you are going to get pregnant or you’re going to catch a STD and it should be reserved for marriage. And so pleasure is missing the whole time in the conversation of sex. And then when we throw in high control religion, it’s even more, the, the curriculum is definitely even more stripped than before. And so when I think about that, I think about how our body experiencing pleasure is innate. It’s organic, and we’ve been taught taught to like cut off our heads from our bodies. Do not register that as pleasure. It is not supposed to be pleasurable, even though the body is sending that signal. And then you have associated that with something that you’ve just committed a sin for having that. It’s so interesting that we’re having to help couples and help individuals remind them of what pleasure is that is organic to them and not associate that with something negative. I mean, what do you what do you think
[00:11:38.89] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
about that? You know? And a a lot of times, what I see that’s unfortunate is when couples come in after years of this, because then there’s a certain dynamic formed around it. You know, there’s certain ways that they learn to cope. For example, like with, say, a woman that doesn’t give herself permission to be sexual or has this idea what that’s supposed to look like or has the pressure of, you know, I have to give my husband sex in order to because men need sex like women don’t, which is just always, you know, baffled me. But, you know, they they have this idea and they end up having sex when they don’t really want to. Maybe they’re stressed. Right? But they feel like if they don’t, then it almost gives their husbands permission to seek it elsewhere because society has this idea that men need sex and women don’t. And if, you know, you don’t, then there’s gonna be this consequence. And I see a lot of women that fear that, and then they end up having sex when they don’t want to, which I I look at as a betrayal to themselves. Right? And how do they get through that? It’s kinda goes back to what you’re saying a minute ago. It’s like they they have to repeat what they did when they were younger. They cut themselves off from it. You know, they associate whatever they have
[00:13:05.70] – Dr Sheena Glover
do. Exactly. Oh, like, when I first came to Texas and had the whole experience with working with individuals who may have, like, removed themselves from their religion. A lot of women were having obligatory sex. And if we, like, look at that and peel back the layers a little bit, there is sexual trauma that can occur. You know, where that you even use the word disassociation, like to give your body to someone because you don’t believe your body is yours. It’s to your husband. I wanna give the benefit of the doubt to the spouses, particularly in in these high control religious couple who deconstructed their oftentimes heterosexual, cisgender, you know, men and women. And so even the men, they they don’t realize that they might be also perpetuating sexual trauma without the kind of the intentions of creating sexual trauma. But it is when you when the one partner doesn’t want sex, that they’ve been taught that their body is for someone else’s pleasure and they have to just kinda give in. I that’s that becomes so murky in that that space. And it feels really it can feel really uncomfortable and a really shameful is what I’ve
[00:14:34.20] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Mhmm. Seen. Yeah. And kinda going back to what we were talking about earlier for men, I I do think that they also have been abused in that way as far as lack of education, not understanding, and this idea that this is what it’s gonna look like. This is what it’s gonna look like when you get married. And what we were talking about earlier is when, you know, then I think men do struggle with, well, maybe what’s wrong with me, or does my wife love me or not enough, you know, that this isn’t the way that it’s playing out. You know? And I think that is what leads to them perpetuating the whole thing. Right? Being maybe more expressive in that arena when I think really what’s missing kind of across the board is just is intimacy, that closeness. Because it they’re both going off of an idea of what sex is supposed to be according to what they learned or what somebody told them versus experience. And they’re coming out of growing up where, like you were saying earlier, pleasure’s denied. You have to spit in a certain box, you know, men, you can’t, you can’t look at a woman and have thoughts about her because that is a sin. You know, women, you can’t, you know, be comfortable in your own body because that is a sin. And then they get married and they have this idea of what sex is and they tried to have that, but it’s not actual intimacy and closeness and trust and allowing desire and organic unfolding of where that leads to and just enjoying each other. It’s this whole other thing that they’re both creating. Mhmm.
[00:16:36.00] – Dr Sheena Glover
Mhmm. The immediate thought I have is like sex then becomes very mechanical when you’re trying to achieve what it’s supposed to be. I really like that. Like, sex sex for couples that are struggling in this way, very unique way, it becomes really mechanical. Like, am I supposed to be doing this? How am I supposed to be doing that? And a lot of people actually develop such severe anxiety, like, either right before or right after. And I you know, for those who are not, you know, familiar with having anxiety before or after sex. It’s, it’s catastrophic about a lot of these men and women who have sex for the first time under those conditions of, like, meeting the meeting the the the criteria. Am I hitting all the marks of what it’s supposed to be? Like, am I giving pleasure? Am I not? Did I do this right? Oh, that’s so terrible. It’s kind of like having Jesus in your bedroom by telling you, that looks like you’re you’re doing it wrong. Yeah. You know? Like, that’s so much pressure to put on anybody, let alone a couple who’ve been together, you know, up to that point, maybe a year or two before they get married and they don’t know this side of themselves.
[00:18:06.50] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Yeah. They don’t, They have giving their authority around their own body to God and, and other people in the religion, like, you know, had to dictate what it’s supposed to be and have cut themselves off from really understanding how they’re enjoying it. And then even, I think, fearful of asking for what they want. Even with their spouses, I think it turns into at least sort of here, you know, this fear of, well, if I ask for that, am I gonna be viewed in a certain way? You know? If I allow myself to have pleasure, it has to be in a box because that might make me look like a slut. You know, that might and my husband may judge me for that. Or, you know, if a man, I don’t know, approaches his wife in a certain way and, you know, she may feel objectified, but what ends up happening is that they both end up objectifying each other in different ways.
[00:19:10.59] – Dr Sheena Glover
is really good. I like that. They end up objectifying each other.
[00:19:14.00] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
It’s like what you’re saying, more about the performance of it. Like, am I doing it right? There’s just so much insecurity around it because there’s never been sex education. There’s never been just an allowing of each person to figure themselves out, their own pleasure and allow desire and all that, that they only can go on what they’ve been told or what they find in different places possibly, like in watching pornography. Okay. Well, this is what sex is supposed to look like. Okay. This is what sex looks like when we’re enjoying it, you know? And, and yet there’s a problem with it too, because that’s not right. So now there’s a struggle there. It’s like, well, what is sex really supposed to be? What am I supposed to feel? I don’t even know what I’m supposed to feel having sex. Like, I’m you know what I mean? Like, there’s such a disconnection.
[00:20:07.59] – Dr Sheena Glover
makes me, like, think of, like, couples, like, how do they even start to have conversations around that? You know? Something that I I I read just the other day is about, like it was a research done on women. They happen to be young women in heterosexual relationships and about communicating sexual desires while simultaneously avoiding sexual conflict. So the conclusion of this research is that the more you are softer, that you provide, like positive feedback of, like, what’s done right, adding jokes and humor for those awkward parts. And then, you know, not the timing can lead to, like, better conversations about sexual discrepancies without creating conflict. And and so I thought that it was a brilliant article. It it’s, you know, missing some things. Like, they don’t have a, like, a men’s perspective. They only gathered it from, like, women’s perspective. And it makes me think about, okay, if we were to put that into, like, a toolbox for couples who are in this exact situation, they’ve deconstructed their faith, but they just need some help on talking about it. Like, my first thought is how could I help them? How what would be the most effective way about it? And in the first place that I go to is, like, a sense of safety. How do I feel safe talking to, you know, my spouse or my partner about something that could really hurt me and my partner. Because sex is such a vulnerable thing. It’s a very vulnerable, you know, intimate, sacred experience for you and your partner. Right. So it’s really tricky. It’s a really tricky territory. And so safety, like, what do you think about when I you know, when you think of safety of how do I create a safe environment to actually have these conversations?
[00:22:14.40] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Yeah. I mean, I yeah. I think the the first thing that comes to mind is giving each other space to be honest. You know, that I read recently a paper on it was, I think, in Psychology Today. But it was talking about people that they find have the most, I guess, ability. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but that that often lie is what it came out to. And the, statistically, it is people that come from high control religions that have skills around not being truthful. I say it that way because, yeah, they’ve they’ve had to be in a lot of instances. Right? You know, because there was never a space for them to be honest about their feelings. They’ve had to, they’ve only been allowed to feel a certain, certain feelings. They had to clamp down on that. And if they were asked a question that they knew was going to lead them to getting into trouble in some way, right, which is most things in high control religion. I mean, you’re, you’re, you know, not allowed to do anything outside of a very strict, very strict parameters of, you know, just being human. You know, like, have desire. You better not, you know, watch pornography, you know, all these different things that if somebody asked, they would say no. Right? Why would you tell the truth if you know where it’s going? And I think a lot of times couples aren’t honest with each other. And so the very first thing is they have to start being honest and that creates safe they have to take a risk around being really truthful about what they really feel, You know, because kind of what you’re saying about that article, like they try to avoid the conflict. You know, I think we’ve talked about this before, you know, I don’t worry about couples that are fighting because I see it as just two sides of the same coin. They’re they’re still invested. There’s passion there. They care about it. It’s indifference, you know, and it it’s almost as though, you know, when there’s not safety to be honest and you can’t be truthful about your real feelings, you don’t get give that other person even an opportunity to get to know you.
[00:24:49.20] – Dr Sheena Glover
I love that. Not an opportunity to get to know you. And you know what? There is also this glaring issue that they don’t know themselves either. They’ve been con you know, experiencing a a religion that tells them that you you were there’s this acronym called joy that I learned from this book called when religion hurts. And it’s Jesus first, others second, you last. And those are the three kind of the order in which you’re supposed to know and think of yourself last. You’re not allowed to think about your feelings or know your feelings because others matter more. And then you primarily, Jesus is first. So it’s very interesting if we were to put this into context. Like, my partner doesn’t know me because I’ve had to kind of conceal myself for the sake of the religion, but then also they don’t they haven’t been, you know, experience in getting to know themselves as well. That would be really you know, that is very tricky just to kinda unpack that. So it just makes me think a person in that position will first need to do their own work before, like, coming into the space of, like, how do I cocreate safety with my partner when when looking at our sex life in couples therapy? You know? What do you think?
[00:26:18.29] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
I I agree. It’s hard to know what to ask for or what you need with your partner if you don’t know because you don’t know yourself. So it seems like you would need to answer those questions first, and then take the risk in sharing it and be vulnerable. Vulnerability is the portal to intimacy. Without vulnerability, you can’t feel closer to another person. And yet vulnerability is really scary because I think coming from a high control religion, you know, the the threat is eternity that you’ll spend it in hell. This is what, you know, they’re taught coming from a high control religion. If you do things outside of this box, you could possibly spend eternity in hell. And I know I know plenty of clients that intellectually know that is absurd, and they, you know, don’t don’t believe it. It’s not a belief that they hold anymore. Yet because it was a trauma and it was taught at such an impressionable age, they still feel it. It will still come up, and it’s still something to fight through. You know? So to express to your partner, like, I would like this in bed. Right? When they’ve been taught that that’s something to be shameful of, or, you know, judge them in some way around it, it’d be really hard to ask for such a vulnerable thing. You have to really trust that your partner’s not gonna judge you because you’re already fighting all these other things internally.
[00:27:58.29] – Dr Sheena Glover
both people don’t treat this moment as really precious and very fragile, it can cause so many setbacks, like, along the way. And, you know, something that I’ve learned in in in understanding this field is or this kind of experience, this is shame. Shame is a great protector. It’s maybe not the most helpful protector, but it it’s the way in which takes a takes you away from feeling the injustice of this all, the frustration instead. If you can just blame yourself, if you can think that you’re at fault, you have a little bit more control. And so I’ve seen couples in my work where, you know, that shame shows up and it hijacks the conversation, and and then it it gets stuck there for a while. So if both people are not ready to treat this as delicately as possible, they’re you know, you just are experiencing one setback after the other. And, you know, and and it’s I think in my opinion, it’s I think that’s just sad. It’s sad to see that they have to do this really delicate, you know, dance to not trigger while also simultaneously trying to be vulnerable. Like, it is not hard to go from a place of lying, really, to be the being dishonest because you know what the consequences are to taking that risk of vulnerability and saying, can I I like it when, or can I have more of this, or can we do this? And if the your partner is not receptive or feel criticized by that request, oh, that that is just so gutting for both people involved, and they’re just triggering each other’s shame.
[00:29:52.29] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
You’re making me think of, in the book Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski. She has a quiz in there that talks about she talks about it in the context of it being, like, putting on putting your foot on the gas versus putting your foot on the brake, and it’s a really good quiz for couples, I think, to discuss with each other because it a lot of times, we’re not aware of these little things that could be turning us off or causing us to dissociate because it’s triggering our nervous system. Right? Because it has trauma around sex, you know, while in the midst of sex. You know? It might be a sound that your partner makes or, you know, a smell or maybe a a thought that creeps in. You know? And these things can create dissociation right away where now you’re not connected to the experience anymore. Now it’s be it’s become something that does feel more obligatory. And I, you know, I think one of the things that I see is really helpful when couples are beginning to kind of break down the dynamic that they’ve been in around sex is to give each other permission to stop in the middle. When something comes up, you know, to to allow that space to be like, hey. I need to take a moment. And and that can be, I I think, so important in building trust and safety and connection and bonding between them to say, you know, hey. That that reminded me of something, and I need to take a moment. And but just to hold each other and give that space and not feel like it has to continue or that, you know, there’s this pressure to not and allow for what’s really coming up in the moment to be so present. You know? And and going back to what you’re saying earlier about having to work on our own personal selves, you know, I think it is around identity, but also learning what works for us and deescalating our nervous systems when they are triggered, and that they’re gonna be triggered around sex. I mean, I don’t know how you pull that apart, you know, without using more defense mechanisms. Right? So you have this sexual abuse is what I would call it, especially if you’ve gone through purity culture. Right? But even if even if that wasn’t a thing, you know, that, you know, you’re you come from a different generation, there’s still sexual abuse that happens because of the fact that you’re taught you you you can’t be a sexual being. I mean, that that’s the bottom line. You know? You can’t be because it’s shameful, and you can’t have desire, and you shouldn’t engage in pleasure because all of it is shameful and you’re going to go to hell if you engage in it. You know? That’s to me is abusive. That’s sexual abuse. So when you do get to a place where you are trying to have a healthy sexual relationship with your spouse or anyone, you know, I I think it is going to trigger you. I don’t I I don’t know how it doesn’t. So, you you know, going back to what you’re saying about safety, I think that knowing your own nervous system and how it’s triggered, what are your triggers, Giving yourself space and your your spouse or your partner giving you space to allow for that to come up being in the moment. Mhmm. I think it’s the only way to create that and to get in touch too with your own pleasure.
[00:33:44.70] – Dr Sheena Glover
Goodness. What you just said, like, I have like three avenues that I’m going to take it through. So, oh my goodness. Okay. So the thought that I had, and I love that to slow down when you notice that you’re disembodied, that you are disassociating or you’re no longer in your body. That’s what it, you know, I think of. And I you and I had a conversation about this before about using the analogy of the room in our homes. Like, how does someone, like, become disembodied, disassociate from their bodies? Like the way that you and I talked about it was imagine that you are a house and in your house, there are several rooms and a lot of those rooms have cautionary tape. It tells you to turn around. This is toxic, this is bad. And some of these room represents your inner experience, your unique experience of something. So let’s imagine one of those rooms, the the door to pleasure has mold, the black mold on the door, and it has cautionary tape, crime scene tape, and all of that. It teaches you that you are not allowed to look inward. You must stay in the outside of your house and see how everybody else is perceiving you because to turn inward and actually allow yourself to have like a pleasurable thought, sexual thought, freeing thoughts about yourself is considered a sin. So we learn to be outside of ourselves, outside of our our home, if you will. And so when I think about what you said about that moment of, you know, the sexual experience between, you know, this couple and something reminds them of the trauma of their past, that sexual abuse that they experienced from purity culture, that moment of, oh, I’m no longer in my house. I’m outside of my house. Like, think of having that visual helps to say, wow. How did I get outside of my house? I need to slow down and kind of walk myself back in. And and that’s the kind of the other point that I was thinking of was, like, that giving yourself permission to slow down. How did I get here? How did we get to this space where I I don’t feel connected with you in this moment of of vulnerability or intimacy? And, you know, I I just I love that that analogy. What are what are your thoughts on that? You’re a Mythical. I I
[00:36:29.19] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
I I remember that. I love that. I love that. Yeah. How do you how do you how do you get to a place where you feel safe enough to walk back in? And what do you need to create maybe safety again, or a foundation that’s a different foundation, right? So that you can enter those rooms.
[00:36:49.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
know, the, the first thought that I have is like, you know, those doors that like the one that I described for pleasure is I said black mold and, like, cautionary tape. That’s the shame. It gives the impression that these doors are off limits to you. Not because that they are, but because that’s what has been conditioned. That is what’s been taught, you know, for a lot of these men and women. Yeah.
[00:37:17.09] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
I mean, when you think about it, it’s just procreation, you know, like as one element, something that is why we still exist is because people had sex. You know what I mean? Mhmm. But that that would be seen as something ugly, right, or shameful, but also pleasure. And it’s it was made that way for a reason. Right? I mean, you know, so that we engage in it so that we can continue to exist. So it just feels just seems weird, you know, and and that’s where you can see how much it’s about control. You know, if you can control people in this way, you can control their pleasure, how they feel about themselves, if they believe that they’re evil.
[00:38:06.90] – Dr Sheena Glover
is why it’s called sexual abuse. I think that that’s a perfect framework for what has happened is because someone else is assigning value or devaluing parts of your experiences and or your body and seeing what is and what isn’t healthy or good, and that they have a say of when your body can be used versus not. Notice that you’re not a part of the equation. You’re not even thought of. Does this feel good? Does this not feel good? Do you want this? When those questions are not being asked, it is sexual abuse. And something I learned, you know, just kind of going into this niche experience with couples is the the pendulum swing that happens for couples who have deconstructed. When they get to that point of sex, everything was prescribed before when they were a part of the religion. Like, you’re allowed to have sex when this happens, and this is how it’s supposed to be done and who’s supposed to gain pleasure from it and all of that. And then once they deconstruct, they go into the pendulum swing, and it’s just the opposite of the prescription. It’s still prescribed of, you know, what is and what isn’t. And that does not necessarily liberate you or give you, like, the empowerment because doing the opposite of something is not inherently the best choice. It’s what is intrinsically and and consciously felt within you to kinda determine that. Like, you’re the compass, not just doing the opposite
[00:39:50.00] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
of what was actually Whether you’re appeasing or rebelling, something’s controlling your behavior. It’s not coming from an autonomous place. And, you know, I I often think too that people will consider that they have deconstructed their religion because they no longer take part in church or they don’t believe a few different things. But I think deconstructing is a lifelong, honestly, process for people. I think it’s like an onion, and you’re just constantly peeling back new layers to it. You know? And I think sex can be a, what’s the word I’m looking for? It it can be a tell, like a poker tell. Right?
[00:40:45.59] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Like a tell to what’s happening in your relationship in a bigger way. I think because, yeah, if you look at it holistically, it’s just one avenue or one area. But if you look at the way that sex is, it usually points to communication, closeness, intimacy in other ways, and where a couple’s, not just about sex.
[00:41:11.90] – Dr Sheena Glover
we, you and I were talking about earlier was about what brings couples that have deconstructed into therapy. And it is oftentimes this the elephant in the room, which is sex. We’re not having it. It doesn’t feel right. We’re always getting into arguments or shutting down altogether, and I just feel really helpless. And when you and I were talking about it, you know, like, you brought up a really good point about sometimes as you’re deconstructing, you you have built this whole life with a whole slew of attention grabbing things like your job, kids, just household stuff and responsibilities. And six just gets moved further and further back until at some point or another, it no longer serves the relationship or it didn’t serve it in the beginning. However, it’s kind of creating pressures in into the relationship.
[00:42:17.09] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
I think it’s an easier in the moment, although I don’t think it’s easier in the big picture. But it’s an easier thing to put on the back burner. Like, oh, I’m tired. Oh, the kids. I have my job. You know, I don’t feel like it. But I I think that the avoidance of it is a bigger picture issue than it actually being that. Because I think that if a lot of times, not always, but, you know, I think it’s a reflection. I think that’s the word I was looking for before. It’s like a reflection of what’s happening on a bigger scale. You know, where you know, how honest are is the couple with each other around other things besides sex. Right? Where else are they Mhmm. Living in an obligatory way or maybe playing out roles that really don’t interest them, but this is what they feel they should be doing. You know? And then that shows up in sex.
[00:43:18.59] – Dr Sheena Glover
I had read this quote as I was learning about, like, sexual, like, sex therapy. And it’s a it’s a quote by Esther Perel. She says, tell me how you were loved as a child, and I will tell you how you have sex.
[00:43:36.50] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Oh.
[00:43:41.19] – Dr Sheena Glover
I yeah. That was when I read that, I was like, record scratch. You’re really thinking about that. That quote comes to mind because in a relationship, oftentimes you don’t just have this one sliver of a problem and everything else is just copacetic. It’s amazing. No. It it permeates into other aspect, and it’s, you know, sex, there is this, you know, automatic. It’s supposed to be enjoyable. It’s supposed to be a good thing. Why isn’t it for us? And that just illuminates the problem.
[00:44:22.69] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
When we you’re talking about sex education earlier. I Mhmm. Would if I hadn’t shared this with you before, I probably would’ve shared the story of when Alexander was in seventh grade, they had sex education one day at school. And their idea of sex education was to scare the living shit out of the students. So what they did was they had a video, and they showed different examples of different STIs. And, you know, Alexandra struggles with eye stuff. She if anybody gets poked in the eye or anything, she passes out. Well, they put on the screen a discussion of gonorrhea of the eye, and Alexandra said she was sitting there and she says, mom, I was thinking mind above matter, mind above matter, because she felt herself starting to pass out. She starts to black, you know, the, you know, the stars or as she starts to black out, she had gum in her mouth. She says, last thing she remembers is saying spit out the gum because you choke on the gum. And she hit the floor so hard that they had to call me and I had to bring rush her to the hospital to make sure she didn’t didn’t have a concussion. And, but this is the point that I was going to say, and this is in Texas. Okay. This is in Keller, Texas. I go to the nurse’s office where there are many students, all green because of being nauseous and sick and everything from this video. And I got to Alexandra and I was like, you know, getting her ready to bring her to the hospital. And the counselor comes in and went up to her to check on her. And when she said, well, I saw the video and it, you know, made me pass out. The counselor said to her, well, then you’ll learn not to have sex.
[00:46:33.50] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
So I, of course, had a whole different different discussion with her on the way to the hospital, you know, that I was shocked that they use scare tactics like that in order to make young people, you know, that are entering into, you know, different hormonal stages and they’re starting to feel desire and sexual, Instead of actually educating them on that and their bodies and everything else, they’re putting these scare tactics on video, and I’m not kidding. There were over a dozen students in the nurse’s office that had either vomited, looks green, passed out.
[00:47:14.80] – Dr Sheena Glover
I I mean, I I find myself wanting to laugh. I’m so sorry to hear it like Alexandra and those kids. Oh, that’s so sad. I’m just visually it’s not funny that they’re sick. It was just the way that but, you know, that frustrates me when I hear it because what, what next, like, let’s imagine that that’s all you ever learned about sex is that you are going to get gonorrhea of the eyeballs. At what point does the message change these individuals who are creating these curriculums and using fear tactic, do they ever stop to think, okay, when they’re officially arrive at age twenty or eighteen, we’re going to have the talk again about sex, but this is what it actually is. Or here’s what you missed the first time I told you that you might not catch STDs if you know how to do safe sex. And it’s that short sightedness that drives me nuts. And then immediately I think about like social psychology, you know, like there’s this perspective of how do you persuade someone or a group of people to follow your message fear. And you have to not only be persuasive by the persuaded by the fear, you also have to give them a way out. If they follow the following plans, then they can avoid this bad thing from happening. And so when we use fear to to drive home a point, what is the end destination? You know? It’s like they’re not thinking about how the influence or how the impact, the ripple effect of that teaching will have. And if it wasn’t for you, your daughter could have held onto that very traumatic and physically hurtful moment and then would have maintained that belief for who knows for how long before someone challenged it.
[00:49:19.80] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
It does speak to what we’re seeing today. We’re getting to a place where there’s gonna be less births than deaths. You know what I mean? Like there’s, you know, we’re not gonna we’re gonna have less population. I I see the gen generations, like, when when I was in my twenties, I don’t know if I really felt that I never really thought about having children, not having children. You know? I just never thought about it. Mhmm. But you see you know what I mean? It was gonna be whatever it was. It wasn’t something that I gave thought to, but I literally see younger generations thinking about it. Do I want to have children? Do I not want to have, you know, like it’s an, and a lot of people saying they don’t want to have children. Now I know this isn’t totally related to sex, but you kinda it could there could be a portion of it that is.
[00:50:21.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
know? I bet I think that that would be a really great, like, a whole episode on how these teachings might have inadvertently created that. Now, I don’t know if I’m going to put that in the in the podcast, you know, but I think that that’s that’s a phenomenal kind of question. When Lisa and I met, we met, in Southlake, Texas, and I had moved from California where I got most of my training. And Lisa had been here for for years by then. But one of the things that I found very interesting about my time when I first got to Texas was how much religion had played a role in people’s sexuality, namely within the LGBTQ. So I felt like I had been, like, teleported back to the fifties where I had clients who were really weary about disclosing their sexual orientation for what felt like months before they finally disclosed because they were afraid that I would convert or judge them or start talking about religion. And then this opened the door for how much religion had impacted women. Some of the individual clients before I started exclusively working with couples, how it was impacting these women feeling like they had to have obligatory sex because their religion had really created that mindset. So Lisa and I kind of share similar experiences wanting to really support the men and women who are in this unique experience where they have already deconstructed their faith. And now they’re looking to rebuild their relationship, their marriage, where it isn’t kind of impacted by their religion telling them that they should be ashamed of who they are for what they want, what they desire. You know? In saying all of that, what has been your experience, Lisa, in terms of this very unique experience that I’ve seen here in Texas, but I imagine in other, like, bible belt states or other, you know, parts of the United States where religion, high control religion can really impact a person’s sense of safety and sexuality. I
[00:53:00.90] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
moved to Texas from Massachusetts, and Massachusetts is very liberal, not part of the Bible Belt. And one of the very first things I noticed when I moved here originally was how much religion was integrated into everything in the south. You know, people I used to refer to it as they wear it on their sleeve. It’s like something that makes them feel a part of a group. And it was very hard to feel part of a community when I was not in religion in a religion. You know, I I grew up Catholic, and in the South, they don’t consider Catholics Christians. That’s what I was told. You know? Yeah. And, you know, I don’t I don’t follow Catholicism. I don’t, you know, I I deconstructed my my own religion years ago, but it was something that really stood out to me how ostracized I felt, you know, how othered I felt, and it just stuck with me.
[00:54:05.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
about your experience in therapy? Like your clients, what drew you into this kind of wanting to, to, to work with this particular population?
[00:54:16.59] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
One of the things that I noticed when I first started working in individual practice was how many people were coming to me and finding me because I was not quote unquote Christian counselor, that there was a lot of fear. And, and a lot of the clients that did come in were part of possibly the LGBT group or, you know, were involved in you know, or part of maybe an open marriage or more polyamorous relationships and and were afraid to be seen by Christian counselor because they felt they would be judged and led down a certain path that they didn’t wanna go down. And I and I realized how much as I can worked with people, you know, I realized how much it permeated their entire life growing up in high control religions, how it was, I think at the core, what we touched on earlier, which was not being connected to themselves, really not knowing themselves from a really young age being taught that they had to be a certain way, period. And if they weren’t, they were abused. This is my words, you know, abused because I don’t know any other situation where a monster is presented to a child in the way the devil’s presented to children. And this idea that you are going to go to hell and for eternity, if you’re not good, according to the religion, I that that’s acceptable. I mean, you know, they they put bans on movies and lyrics and songs, and now they’re banning books and everything else. Right? But that is okay. And that to me is abusive. And I think it then sets the stage for there to be a lack of connection to self, a lack of knowing how you feel about all kinds of things. But when we start to get involved in, you know, the discussion of intimacy and sex, it plays out. And I think in today’s day and age where the patriarchy and some of the other things, you know, traditional ways of living are being challenged so deeply, women in particular, but I think men and women really in the big picture, you know, are rejecting these things. It’s like, okay, but how do I replace this? What do I do now? You know, I grew up with this. This is affecting me. Like, I I don’t wanna feel shame around sex, but I do. I don’t want to be turned off by my husband watching pornography, but I am. Mhmm. I have these desires, but I may see my husband in a certain light because of, you know but I don’t know how to work past that. I don’t know what to do about that. And it just started to become more eye opening for me that, how much it affects people’s whole lives, you know. And a and a lot of times these things are put off because, you know, you’re you’re raised this way, then hit your twenties, maybe you married the person you’ve been in love with and you didn’t have sex before marriage. And you you you try you you start you you believe it’s gonna be a certain way, and then it’s not, but you put it on the back burner. Maybe you have a couple kids, you know, life goes on and then you hit, you know, possibly thirties and you start to question, you start to get into this, you know, like what, wait a minute, is this what it’s supposed to look like forever? I don’t, I don’t want this. This is not what I want. I wanna experience other things in my life, and they start to quest people start to question it. Clients come in, you know, for all kinds of reasons. You know? I think sex is the one that I see most often be brought in, but I think it’s a symptom to a bigger picture. But I think it’s it’s the one that people get to a place and they think I want to experience something different than what I’m experiencing in that arena, and it’s easier to point out and say, well, I’m not feeling free sexually. I’m not feeling pleasure. I’m unable to be in the moment, unable to experience it in the way that I really want to, and there’s a lot of questions that come up around that. Right? With maybe what’s wrong with me? You know? How do I change this? And some people might divorce at that time or leave or, you know, look for other ways, you know, when really I think at the core of it is intimacy, intimacy with self. How do you how can you be intimate and honest and forthcoming with someone else when you haven’t been able to be that for yourself with yourself, because you were told to reject a big part of yourself growing up.
[00:59:07.40] – Dr Sheena Glover
know, though, something that just hit when I think about couples, like, why is it that, sex is the primary issue, you know, or a large issue? And, you know, they might actually talk about, you know, disconnection in the relationship, difficulties with communication. Sex is the only area in the in the, like, the whole of the relationship that feels very much like the religion and this is just off the top of my head. Think about it from that perspective. That’s the area. They could be good in everything else in that religion. Right? Be, you know, giving charitable read the scripture, read the bible, read the doctrines. Right? Practice, regurgitate. Now take that and put it next to a, inside of a marriage. I can pay the bill. I can be the provider. But sex in both context of both when you are a part of that religion and you are in the marriage, it still felt the same. That’s the one immovable. Even if you’re having sex, it still feels the same. That shame still feels the same. And I think that that’s why so many people come in.
[01:00:25.69] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
What do you think of that? Yes. Yes. It’s like, it’s it’s the red flag. You know, it’s the thing’s wrong because, yeah, in every other area, they can do all the things that you just mentioned. But when it comes to sex, I mean, sex kind of forces because of what you said earlier, sex is so vulnerable, and it can be if it’s not treated in that way and treated as a sacred connection, you know what? You know, I I think it goes back to what you’re saying about safety. You know, you you because you really do need to feel everybody, whether you’ve grown up in a high control religion or not. You know? Sex demands safety. Now you can have sex without safety, but you are gonna have a guard up. You are gonna be protecting yourself in some way. You might be able to, you know, experience, say, an orgasm, right, Even though you’re protected and all that, and then you might believe that it well, then it might be good sex, but you’re not you’re not connecting with that other person. It’s not sacred anymore. It’s very objectified, performative. It’s, you know, it it’s something that people are just doing, you know, with each other versus experiencing that connection. And you can’t do that without vulnerability. So you can have sex without safety, but you’re not going to have good sex without safety.
[01:01:55.50] – Dr Sheena Glover
and also to feel safe is also to feel empowered too, by the way. So empowerment is a really good indicator that. That you are doing something for you. If you’re not feeling empowered, maybe that opens the door of, do I actually feel safe? Is this making me feel comfortable, you know, in that experience?
[01:02:16.50] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
I like that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Do you feel empowered? And I don’t think you know, at least in my experience in working with couples, I don’t think that either really feel empowered in that arena at all or safe. I think there’s a desire to feel that, but then there’s this question mark of how to how to do that. And I think that what happens and tell me if this has been your experience, but I know in the beginning of working with people on an individual level, right, that come up come in a lot of the focus can be around what can you control and what can’t you control. Because I think a lot of times, what happens is people will first try to control the other person. Well, if they just do this, then I can feel comfortable. You know? If they just do that, I can feel safe, and you can’t. Right? You can’t control another person. So I think it’s more around focusing on connecting with yourself, having insight around what it is that you feel you desire, how you would like it to be, taking risks around being vulnerable. And that’s a big ask. That’s a big ask.
[01:03:31.80] – Dr Sheena Glover
love what you said about, like, focusing on someone else. If they would do that is actually you taking the power literally out of your hand and putting it into another being. That is like perpetuating what you’ve had to endure in your religion. Put it in God’s hands. If, if you just pray enough or if you do this X, Y, and Z, then, And it’s everything really outside of you because like that joy acronym that I mentioned, you know, Jesus first, other second, you last, waiting for your partner to to do x, y, and z before you feel safe, that formula no longer works. And that’s something that I noticed when working with couples in this experience with religion and deconstructing is that their previous experience being so complex and so enmeshed with their identity, their sexuality, their definition of love, you find instances of these religious bindings in so many small areas of your life. And you’re like, another one, this is another time my religion is getting to me, you know? And then it, and it definitely feels frustrating. And and also so it makes you kind of feel helpless and hopeless when you see that another thing that reminds you or that you’re replicating of your religious kind of teachings, when you see it, it can be very discouraging. But to struggle with it means that you’re trying to move forward. Acquiescing and not having any struggles, all you know, might mean that either you’re not aware of the problem having existed or, you know, you still need to kind of develop insight around that. You know?
[01:05:33.80] – Lisa Brennan, LPC
Yeah. So I love that. The very thing that I think couples avoid, which is and, of course, safety needs to be created in that, But is to just be authentic in in the moment when it comes to sex because it’s the masks that are the turn offs. Right? It’s the the mask they feel like they have to wear in that, the thing that they feel they should be in that moment, which is the turn offs. Because the turn ons are the things that are you taking care of you and your own pleasure with the other person as well. You know, like, when when either person is responding to the other one with desire and that attraction and all that. It’s what is a turn on to the other partner. So if you take care of your own pleasure in that way, like know yourself and allow yourself to feel it and be in the moment. That’s the very thing. Right? There’s the there’s no way to perform that. There’s no way to to perform that and have the same experience. It’s just not gonna it doesn’t exist. It’s the actual allowing in the moment and allowing the attraction and desire, and that is what fuels the other person. And we’re just talking about desire. Right? And then, of course, the vulnerability and and the safety and the honesty is what creates more intimacy.
[01:07:14.80] – Dr Sheena Glover
I’m glad we made it to the end of this wonderful episode of exploring the impact that religious trauma can have on your sexuality and your experiences in your marriage. If you want to learn more about today’s episode, head on over to intimacy in progress where you will get a lot more information about the topic as well as a treatment that Lisa and I offer for those who are undergoing deconstruction in their faith as a married couple. And I put out episodes every other week. So I will talk to you then, and have a wonderful day.